I think that it is important for people on all sides here including Christians, Pagans, and Atheists to recognize what really constitutes persecution.

Repeatedly being witnessed to even though you've made it clear you aren't going to be changed may be annoying, insenstitive, and downright cloddish but it is NOT persecution.

Some of the stupid, incredibly hurtful things (not counting witch hangings and burnings –Salem and all–that really DID constitute religious persecution) Christians have done to non Christians here in America (and there are plenty of ways we have really screwed up and hurt people!) does NOT constitute persecution.

Christians, having a school Christmas parade cancelled, the phrase Happy Holidays instead of Merry Christmas, and the Target urban legend DO NOT constitute religious persecution.

So what does? Being beheaded because somebody heard you praying the wrong prayer? Having your places of worship vandalized?

Persecution is denial of rights to a specific group extended to the rest of the population. It can be anything from denying a job to someone because he is an atheist, laws preventing homosexual to marry, to laws making it a criminal offense to be a Communist (as were on the books in several American states), to executions of apostates in Iran.

Persecution comes from governments and companies and other organised groups, not private individuals. What many people see as persecution from individuals is discrimination. Of the examples you gave, I would call the beheading persecution, but the vandalising is discrimination.

The 'happy holidays' thing isn't anything. It doesn't even approach persecution.

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and please "intelligent" atheists…please don't confuse amorality with immorality…

NO…

Like with anything… if you raise the bar too high, you will fall short. But one must not confuse ignorance as an insight into necessity.

We have values (as human beings)… nurture, flourishing, love, happiness, caring for ourselves and others… YOU people choose to MONOPOLIZE all of this by saying that it is thanks to GOD… or that such values are "CHRISTIAN" values…

ATTENTION CHRISTIAN (and other religious ignoranuses):

DO NOT MONOPOLIZE MORALITY

Morality is born of human nature not of imaginary deity nature!! Ironic that it is the Theists who ulitmately lack moral grounding or foundation for their beliefs…. Because the fear of sky daddy's spanking them is what keeps you people in check… FOR SHAME.

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Seeing the rise and fall of all the Gods isn't Atheism the only possible winner between "God" and atheism ?
Since the dawn of time there was at least one person doubting what others told him about religion.
There were Sumerian, Egyptian , Greek , Roman, Slav and modern religions (Islam, Chrstianity, Judaism, … ), but there is only one Atheism.

Strong minds question what they learn.

Because of that there will always be those looking for more logical explanations for what we do not know about our world.

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I'm inclined to believe atheism. People are getting smarter these days.

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“Christians were mocked for imagining that man is important in the vast scheme of the universe, even the high point of all creation—yet my father thought man and his preservation the most important thing in the world, and he lived in hopes of a better life to come”

And yes….

Bertrand Russell (1872-1970), a British mathematician and philosopher, was applauded as one of the world’s profound thinkers. In 1959 he was awarded the Nobel Prize for literature on the basis that he was “a defender of humanity and freedom of thought.” He authored more than 40 books covering such subjects as philosophy, education, sex, and morality.

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we are having a debate in class about Christianity V.S Atheism, and i chose the Christian side , so i need to prove that God exists .. i need some points that i can say in this debate

Use the idea that this universe is too complex so it must at least point at a creator

Then go into Jesus and his divinity. Talk about how his apostles were willing to die for him because they believed he was resurrected.

Talk about how the old testament makes clear prophecies of Jesus (over 100) and how they came true. Mention the dead sea scrolls too. Pull out at least 20 prophecies that Jesus fulfilled. When they ask "Jesus fulfilled those prophecies when he read them" say, "Then he was willing to be crucified too" and then explain how some of the prophecies were not able to be fulfilled by Jesus' actions (Jews rejecting him, his birth place, Judas betraying him).

Make sure to start by saying that faith isnt blind and that many philosophers, theologans, and professors have used reason to explain God. Say that no one bases their beliefs on fact (scientists, christians, anyone) and that they base it on evidence. From there, they simply choose which evidence to believe in.

When you talk abot martyrs talk about how the matrydom of Jesus' closest apostles was unlike no other. talk about unlike anyone else, these apostles saw Jesus' resurrection first hand. We are able to trust these apostles because they were willing to die for what they KNEW was true, they SAW Jesus. Then give how each of the apostles died for their spreading of Christianity (they were all killed except for John). Then, if someone may say that they simply lied, ask the class if they would willingly die for something they knew was a lie. And then explain that the punishment the apostles endured. Hunger, persecution, etc.

Look at the Apostle Paul and look at his conversion. A murderer who saw the light of Christ and converted into a kind, human being.

Talk about how the bible isnt a book, but a collection of books. The New Testament is an excellent record of the historical witnessing of Jesus through the apostles eyes. THEN, if they say that the apostles made stuff up about Jesus, explain to them that the people of the time would have heard of it and there would have been some form of a response from the people.

Tell them that the earliest writings of Christ are trustworthy– when compared to the historical timeline of Alexander the Great for example, the gap of actual original writings is far greater then that for the books in the NT/Bible. This at least proves that the writings are MORE trustworthy then other records of history. If they dont believe that then tell them again about the accuracy of the Dead Sea Scrolls. Talk about the process of how people copied the bible– they had specific rules to follow and if they made even the simplest mistake they had to redo the copy.

Tell them that you cannot prove God exists through primary sources (using our senses) but there is evidence of a) a Creator and b) The Judeo-Christian God.

Either they accept or reject the evidence/reason, just like you accepted/rejected their evidences/reasons.

Read a couple lines of C.S Lewis' writings ot Lee Strobel's. By the way, good luck. You will need it

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persecuting
1: to harass or punish in a manner designed to injure, grieve, or afflict; specifically : to cause to suffer because of belief2: to annoy with persistent or urgent approaches (as attacks, pleas, or importunities) : pester

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/persecuting

lets face it…how many atheists are here actually to learn…and not pester believers…there are many atheist who have been coming to this site repeatedly just to pester Christians…

“most” on YA R&S would, yes… I know many “atheists” who are very good and caring and understanding people… they would never behave in the manner so many do here.

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New Atheists:
http://www.wired.com/news/wiredmag/1,71985-0.html

Neoconservatives (Religious Right) and "New Atheists," though seemingly opposites, all appear to have the goal of polarizing groups that were formerly happy to "live and let live" (a few lively but friendly discussions on politics and religion notwithstanding.)

What do you think?

Somewhere along the road the neoconservatives got the idea that evangelizing includes brow beating and threats to force others to believe as they do. Any truly religious person will tell you that the only way to true faith is through your own heart. The whole point of evangelizing is literally to "spread the word" regarding your beliefs. That is where the similarity to atheists lies.

Traditionally, Atheism has never been a socially acceptable position. As a responsible adult in an open society, you have to accept atheists beliefs as their own just as you would for any religious believers. Atheism is simply a belief that the power over the lives of people is in their own being.

Since religious groups have become more and more political their spokespersons have begun to bastardize the traditional beliefs in order to gain power. The religious right spouts the fears that lie in the hearts of everyone and attempts to convince the public that the "non-believers" are to blame for them. In some respects, they go so far that the true believers stay out of the political conversations and the "band wagon" believers are ready to force anyone to their ways.

Atheists have never had a more socially acceptable place in modern history as they do now. In politics, it takes numbers to achieve what you want done. In order to get out from under the seemingly growing power of the RR, masses of atheists have been forced to identify (not to imply they were/are hiding their beliefs) publicly with one another.

There is a whole sector of our society that is nothing more than sheep and will follow the group that promises the most "happy" outlook to their lives. They are free game for the political machine that is using religious beliefs as fuel.

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really if you break it down it pretty much comes to this.

"You are persecuting me by not allowing me to persecute everybody else."

i do not want to hear about what happens to Christians in Muslim countries, they would treat an Atheist or Pagan the same.
Where do you get off living in America and claiming persecution. the laws of the country are geared towards your beliefs.
so they do not sanction prayers in school and government buildings big deal, that means everybody not just you. everything else is either already geared to your religion, or legislation is in effect to make it so.
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Mel,

the country was not founded on christian beliefs, it was founded on the beliefs of freedom for everybody.

over the past 200 years the christian majority has put their beliefs into law whenever possible, so the laws reflect the christian religious moral beliefs.

removal of religion from government and publis institutions is not persecution.
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serena, you ask

I would like to see your statistics proving that 120,000 thousand atheists are martyred for their non-faith every year."

Ummm i might be wrong here, but i do not recall ever saying anything about atheist's being killed for their non belief.

as far as why i direct my questions to America, I live in America as to the people that i was addressing. and it was relevant to the context of my question. in the countries that CHristians are persecuted for their beliefs, Pagans would be given the same treatment, and much of that is not so much anti christian but anti-American. people seem unable to tell the difference sometimes.
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Rose Within,

please site locations and the relevant local LAWS that prevent people from displaying the Nativity in their own property. and likewise for the Church. court cases that upheld these laws would be adiquate. If you cannot do this then your arguement holds no water.

and the swore a man in by his religion run for the hills they RESPECTED somebody else. You make no mention of the other congressmen and senatore/judges/ and local officials that are sworn in on the Bible every day. but one Muslim if allowed his religious freedom that our constitution grants and it is persecution to you. you make my point very clear for me thank you for cementing my point.
Rose Within.

Show me a likn to a court case where somebody was told to take a nativity scene from their PRIVATE LAND.
this would indicate persecution.

You cannot display your religion on public land just as i can not display mine. this is fairness not persecution.

and you may forget. that everyone in this country except the NATIVE AMERICANS came here form forign countries. that arguement fails to hold water.

Christians are treated with more respect and have more laws working for them than any other religion in this country. but anytime that the country makes an attempt to be FAIR to somebody else you claim Persecution. YES i CALL MYSELF AN AMERICAN. My family did the scribe work on the constitution and the decleration of independence. my family fought in the civil war. my father was in Vietnam and my grandfather won the Navy Cross in WWII
I would probably be in iraq right now if it were not for a knee surgery.
my family has fought and died to defend your right to be a Bigot. and when they were fighting and dieing they were beside
Japanese/Korean/Native American/ Black/ White/Christian/Muslim/Jew/Pagan and Atheist. if there is one thing to be learned from the tragic wars of this country it is that people of all races and religions fight to protect the rights of people that HATE them.

you make me sick.

I've asked this exact question several times…and was told that by removing them from the schools and laws, we were discriminating against them.

They feel that supporting gay marriage is forcing that belief on them.

They feel that questioning their beliefs is a form of persecution.

I propose we send them all to Saudi Arabia for a week. They can then learn the difference between persecution and politics.

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